Talmud zu Bereschit 43:48

Who disagrees?⁴⁸With the criterion of three stars for the start of night. Rebbi Ḥanina the Colleague of the Rabbis⁴⁹He usually goes by the name of R. Ḥananiah the Colleague of the Rabbis, a Babylonian who was an important teacher of the leaders of the fourth generation of Amoraim but who never headed a talmudic academy. He insists that it is logical to assert that as long as three stars can still be seen at dawn it is night even though it is relatively light and (Mishnah 5) one may well distinguish between dark blue and white, or between dark blue and dark green. Hence, since the theory of the three stars contradicts the Mishnah it must be invalid. asked: Just as you say in the evening that it is night if three stars are visible even though the sun is in the middle of the sky it is night, so you must say the same thing in the morning. Rebbi Abba⁵⁰R. Abba also was a Babylonian, a student of Rav Huna and Rav Yehudah in Babylonia, who went to Israel and became a rich silk merchant and talmudic authority of the third generation of Amoraim, a contemporary of R. Ḥanina the Colleague of the Rabbis. His argument parallels the previous one but, since it is based on Biblical verses, it seems to be an attack on the Mishnah which gives different treatments to dawn and dusk.
The first verse asserts that Lot came to Zoar at sunrise. The second verse asserts that the Cohen who had cleansed himself from impurity is purified at nightfall as explained earlier. The argument seems to center on the ambiguous statement “the sun will come and he will be pure.” Everywhere, the “coming” of the sun is its going, sundown or nightfall. In the first verse, the coming of Lot to Zoar is real coming, parallel to the going out of the sun. Hence, in the first verse coming and going out are the same. It would follow that, in the second verse also, coming must have the same status as going out since it is one of the principles of Rabbinic interpretation that Biblical expressions have the same meaning at every occurrence (a principle known as gĕzērāh šāwāh.) Hence, the different treatment of dawn and dusk in the Mishnah seems to contradict the principles of Rabbinic Bible interpretation. said: It is written (Gen. 19:23): “The sun went out over the earth and Lot came to Zoar.” And it is written (Lev. 22:7): “The sun will come and he shall be pure.” He brackets going out and coming. Since coming means that it is hidden from the creatures so also its coming out when it will be ascertained by the creatures. Rebbi Abba⁵¹It is not known if this Rebbi Abba, solving the puzzle, is the same as the author of the preceding question or another sage of the same name. The editorial principle of the Babli, to quote an authority the first time as פלוני אמר and the following times as אמר פלוני or ואמר פלוני does not apply to the Yerushalmi. said, it is written (Gen. 43:3): “In the morning it was light.” The Torah called the light morning.⁵²The Biblical text tells of Joseph’s brothers leaving Egypt to return to Canaan. Hence, it means the first dawn which was the first possible time for their leaving, and the Biblical verse connects the technical meaning of “morning” with the first light of dawn. Hence, the asymmetry of treating dawn and dusk is Biblical and Rebbi Ḥanina’s and Rebbi Abba’s arguments are unjustified. Rebbi Ismael⁵³He is a Tanna, an older contemporary of Rebbi Akiba and head of his own school. The sentence is a quote from an anonymous statement in Mekhilta dĕRibbi Ishmaël, Bo, 6): “ ‘They shall eat the meat during that night’; from here I understand during the entire night. The verse says ‘do not leave any leftovers until morning; but anything left over until morning you shall burn in fire.’ Why does the verse repeat ‘until morning’? To give a domain to the earliest part of morning. From here they said (Mishnah 3–4): ‘The consumption of the Passover sacrifice and all other sacrifices, the burning of their parts on the altar can be done until the start of dawn and all sacrifices that must be eaten within one day can be eaten until the start of dawn.’ Why did the Sages decree (that all must be done) until midnight? To remove people from transgression and to make a fence around the Torah.”
This is an additional indication that the earliest possible sign of dawn is the Biblical start of a new day. stated: (Ex. 12:10) “In the morning, in the morning,” to give a domain to the very early morning.

HALAKHAH: Rebbi Tanhum bar Ilai in the name of Rebbi Yose ben Ḥanina: So answer the House of Shammai to the House of Hillel: May any obligatory sacrifice come from tithe¹¹¹It is implied in Halakhah 2 that the 1 and 2 oboloi required in Mishnah 2 must be profane money.? They said to them, if it were a weekday, could he not bring one from profane money and add the tithe money? And here he brings one from profane money and adds tithe money¹¹²Also on the holiday.. From where that one may add [tithe money]? Rebbi Yose ben Ḥanina said, it is said here measure¹¹³Deut. 16:10, referring to the holiday of Pentecost which has no intermediary days. The root of the word is taken (with many moderns) to be נשׂא., and it is said there, for you cannot carry it¹¹⁴Deut. 14:24, referring to Second Tithe; same root.. Since carrying mentioned there refers to tithe, so also here tithe. Rebbi Eleazar said, it mentions joy here and it mentions joy there¹¹⁵“Joy” as commandment to enjoy meat is repeatedly mentioned for holidays in Deut. 16, and referring to Second Tithe in Deut. 14:26.. Since joy mentioned there refers to tithe, so also joy mentioned here refers to tithe. Could not all of them be brought from tithe money? Ulla bar Ismael said, it is said here measure and it is said there, the gift for Benjamin exceeded¹¹⁶Gen. 43:34, same root.. Since gift which is mentioned there refers to one as principal¹¹⁷The gift to every brother. and the remainder addition, so also here one is principal and the remainder addition. Rebbi Yose ben Rebbi Abun said, are not the voluntary well-being offerings like the well-being offerings of the holiday? Why does he add those verses?¹¹⁸Why are those somewhat shaky derivations needed at all? To tell you that for them one pushes aside the holiday¹¹⁹To justify the House of Hillel who in matters of well-being sacrifices treat full holidays on the same level as the intermediate days..

BARAITHA. Sit before the elders and incline your ear to listen to their words.
GEMARA. As it is written, Ask thy father, and he will declare unto thee, thine elders and they will tell thee.⁹Deut. 32, 7.
BARAITHA. Endeavour in connection with their words to reply on the first point first and on the last point last.
GEMARA. We have learnt there:¹⁰Aboth V, 10 (Sonc. ed., V, 7, p. 64). Seven marks distinguish an uncultured man and seven a wise man. Why does [the Mishnah] first mention the uncultured man? It should have mentioned the wise man [first]!¹¹It is more befitting to begin with the qualities of the wise. Further, why [immediately after mentioning the uncultured man does it enlarge upon the marks] of the wise man [without first enumerating the marks of the uncultured man]?¹²The Mishnah reads: ‘There are seven marks of an uncultured man and seven of a wise man. The wise man does not speak’, etc. Because [the Mishnah] wishes to state, ‘The wise man does not speak before him who is greater than he in wisdom’. Let, then [the Mishnah] state, ‘The uncultured man speaks’, etc.! The teacher enumerates the merits of the wise, and as for the uncultured the converse [applies to them].
R. Aḥa said to Raba, ‘Whence do we know from the Torah that one should speak to the first thing first and the last thing last?’ [He replied,] ‘Whence [do we know it]? It is a Rabbinical teaching’. [R. Aḥa] retorted, ‘According to your reasoning, whence are all of them¹³The seven marks of the wise man. derived?’ He replied, ‘I will tell you them [all from the Torah]. “The wise man does not speak, etc.” [can be learnt] from Hushai, as it is written, Shall we do after his saying? if not, speak thou.¹⁴2 Sam. 17, 6. Ḥushai did not speak in the presence of Aḥitophel, who was greater in wisdom than he, but merely reported to Absalom what he had said. “He does not break in upon the speech of the wise”, as it is written, And it came to pass, that when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking … then spoke Azariah.¹⁵Jer. 43, 1f. “He is not hasty to answer”, as it is written, Be not rash with thy mouth.¹⁶Eccl. 5, 1. “He questions according to the subject”, as it is written, And he asked them … Is your father well, the old man of whom ye spoke? Is he yet alive?¹⁷Gen. 43, 27. And they answered, Thy servant our father is well, he is yet alive.¹⁸ibid. 28. “He speaks to the first point first”, as it is written, And (he) said: Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee. Is there room in thy father’s house for us to lodge in?¹⁹ibid. XXIV, 23. And it is written, And she said unto him, I am the daughter of Bethuel²⁰ibid. 24. and then, We have both straw and provender enough.²¹ibid. 25. “And he acknowledges the truth”: This refers to Moses, as it is written, And when Moses heard that, it was well-pleasing in his sight;²²Lev. 10, 20, i.e. Moses acknowledged the force of Aaron’s argument. and it is written, For he hath spoken to us in the name of the Lord our God’.²³Jer. 26, 16. The reference is to Jeremiah, the genuineness of whose prophecy is acknowledged by the princes.

And he does not become agitated and respond too quickly.
This is Elihu ben Berakhel HaBuzi, as it says (Job 32:7), “I said to myself: Let age speak first.” This teaches that they were sitting in silence before Job. When he would stand up, they would stand up. When he would sit down again, they would sit down again. When he ate, they would eat. When he drank, they would drink. Finally, he asked permission to speak, as it says (Job 3:1, 3), “Afterward, Job began to speak, and cursed the day of his birth.” And he said, “Perish the day on which I was born, and the night it was announced: A male has been conceived!” Perish the day that my father came to my mother and she told him: I am pregnant. And how do we know that they did not all start speaking at the same time? For it says (Job 3:2), “Job answered and said…” and then (Job 4:1), “Elifaz HaTeimani answered and said…” and then (Job 8:1), “Bildad HaShukhi answered and said…” and then (Job 11:1), “Tzofar HaNa’amati answered and said…” and then (Job. 32:6), “Elihu ben Berakhel HaBuzi answered and said….” The book lays them out one at a time (however), to let everyone know that a wise person does not speak before someone who is greater in wisdom. And does not interrupt his fellow. And does not become agitated and respond quickly.
He asks appropriately. This is Judah, as it says (Genesis 43:9), “I will pledge myself for him.”
He asks inappropriately. This is Reuben, as its says (Genesis 42:3), “Reuben said to his father: Let my two sons die!”
He speaks of first things first. This is Jacob. And some say this is Sarah.
And last things last. These are the men of Haran.
And he admits to what is true. This is Moses, as it says (Deuteronomy 5:25), “The Eternal said to me…they did well to speak thus.” So, too, did the Holy Blessed One admit to what was true, as it says (Numbers 27:7), “The daughters of Tzelophechad have spoken correctly.”